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	<title>Comments on: Thoughts on changing churches</title>
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	<description>A personal walk in a wilderness of words</description>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-200</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mike, thanks for stopping by and for the encouragement. The scenarios you&#039;ve described make sense to me. I actually have a lot of sympathy for the Baptist &quot;way&quot; - waiting to be baptized until you&#039;re old enough to make a conscious choice is in line with the attitudes that I&#039;ve developed as an adult. That said, I never had the experience of &quot;confirmation&quot;, so that may be coloring my views.

I certainly don&#039;t see &quot;magic&quot; in the act of baptism - salvation happens when you ask Christ into your heart and confess him as Lord. I understand baptism to be an outward demonstration of that choice and a &quot;sign of unity&quot; with the church.

Based on what I&#039;ve read and learned, I don&#039;t think that this church is withholding acknowledgment of salvation until you&#039;re baptized by immersion, but I certainly will seek clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike, thanks for stopping by and for the encouragement. The scenarios you&#8217;ve described make sense to me. I actually have a lot of sympathy for the Baptist &#8220;way&#8221; &#8211; waiting to be baptized until you&#8217;re old enough to make a conscious choice is in line with the attitudes that I&#8217;ve developed as an adult. That said, I never had the experience of &#8220;confirmation&#8221;, so that may be coloring my views.</p>
<p>I certainly don&#8217;t see &#8220;magic&#8221; in the act of baptism &#8211; salvation happens when you ask Christ into your heart and confess him as Lord. I understand baptism to be an outward demonstration of that choice and a &#8220;sign of unity&#8221; with the church.</p>
<p>Based on what I&#8217;ve read and learned, I don&#8217;t think that this church is withholding acknowledgment of salvation until you&#8217;re baptized by immersion, but I certainly will seek clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Zimmerli</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-199</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Zimmerli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:51:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ElShaddai, as long as the baptism by immersion is not held out as being required for salvation, I don&#039;t see anything wrong with a new commitment, a new profession of faith and a joining with the local church body. When we joined the Southern Baptist Church here in southeast Georgia a few years ago, we went through the same process. I was raised Methodist - in Redwood Falls, MN, actually - and had been sprinkled as an infant, but never baptized as a believer. My wife was raised Catholic and sprinkled as an infant, also.

The pastor brought both my wife and I together into the baptismal, and asked us both questions to profess our faith and asked me extra questions as the husband and head of the house. I was baptized first and then my wife.

We often have people join who &quot;profess that they have accepted Christ as their savior, and were baptized by another method previously in their life. They choose to join with our congregation and as a sign of unity wish to follow Christ in believer&#039;s baptism.&quot;

This is simply the Baptist way. If you don&#039;t agree with it, don&#039;t do it. But if you can use it to draw nearer to God and to identify with the body of believers you are joining - and be identified WITH them - understanding that it doesn&#039;t make you more or less saved ... I say welcome aboard.

I think it&#039;s wrong to make a big issue about it  - it&#039;s divisive, and that&#039;s not from God.

Regarding sprinkling - I&#039;m not a Bible scholar, but I understood that the only real translation for the original word for baptism was immersion. But really, it doesn&#039;t matter. If you don&#039;t have Christ in your heart, it doesn&#039;t matter which method you choose, because you&#039;re just all wet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ElShaddai, as long as the baptism by immersion is not held out as being required for salvation, I don&#8217;t see anything wrong with a new commitment, a new profession of faith and a joining with the local church body. When we joined the Southern Baptist Church here in southeast Georgia a few years ago, we went through the same process. I was raised Methodist &#8211; in Redwood Falls, MN, actually &#8211; and had been sprinkled as an infant, but never baptized as a believer. My wife was raised Catholic and sprinkled as an infant, also.</p>
<p>The pastor brought both my wife and I together into the baptismal, and asked us both questions to profess our faith and asked me extra questions as the husband and head of the house. I was baptized first and then my wife.</p>
<p>We often have people join who &#8220;profess that they have accepted Christ as their savior, and were baptized by another method previously in their life. They choose to join with our congregation and as a sign of unity wish to follow Christ in believer&#8217;s baptism.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is simply the Baptist way. If you don&#8217;t agree with it, don&#8217;t do it. But if you can use it to draw nearer to God and to identify with the body of believers you are joining &#8211; and be identified WITH them &#8211; understanding that it doesn&#8217;t make you more or less saved &#8230; I say welcome aboard.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s wrong to make a big issue about it  &#8211; it&#8217;s divisive, and that&#8217;s not from God.</p>
<p>Regarding sprinkling &#8211; I&#8217;m not a Bible scholar, but I understood that the only real translation for the original word for baptism was immersion. But really, it doesn&#8217;t matter. If you don&#8217;t have Christ in your heart, it doesn&#8217;t matter which method you choose, because you&#8217;re just all wet.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-192</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 17:25:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As I understand it, ElShaddai, you believed and were then baptised, according to the theological position held by your new church. This is the standard Anabaptist position, but note that the original Anabaptists were baptised by sprinkling as you were. So your new church is cutting itself off from the Anabaptist tradition and most of the Baptist one by rejecting your baptism as a believer. Continue to read about the Baptist view of baptism, and you will find that mode i.e. how much water is very much a secondary issue. Your new church is wrong to make it primary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, ElShaddai, you believed and were then baptised, according to the theological position held by your new church. This is the standard Anabaptist position, but note that the original Anabaptists were baptised by sprinkling as you were. So your new church is cutting itself off from the Anabaptist tradition and most of the Baptist one by rejecting your baptism as a believer. Continue to read about the Baptist view of baptism, and you will find that mode i.e. how much water is very much a secondary issue. Your new church is wrong to make it primary.</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-195</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 20:22:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Peter, thanks for the input and concern. Can I ask you to expound a little more on &quot;not on the recognised theological grounds that baptism must follow faith&quot;? I&#039;ve not had a formal conversation with the church about our specific situation, but from what I can tell, their position is &quot;believe and be baptized&quot;, which seems consistent with baptism following faith. Or is your concern that the (ana)baptist view as a whole is separate from the worldwide church? I really do appreciate the help in understanding the nuances of these theological issues - this certainly was not a part of my early Christian education.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, thanks for the input and concern. Can I ask you to expound a little more on &#8220;not on the recognised theological grounds that baptism must follow faith&#8221;? I&#8217;ve not had a formal conversation with the church about our specific situation, but from what I can tell, their position is &#8220;believe and be baptized&#8221;, which seems consistent with baptism following faith. Or is your concern that the (ana)baptist view as a whole is separate from the worldwide church? I really do appreciate the help in understanding the nuances of these theological issues &#8211; this certainly was not a part of my early Christian education.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-194</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>ElShaddai, I wish you well in your new church, but I have serious issues with the baptism question. For your new church is making an issue not of believers&#039; baptism but of the mode of baptism. Yes, baptism is about &quot;being a visible part of and accountable to a larger community&quot;, but that larger community is not one congregation or denomination but the worldwide church. By requiring rebaptism as they are, and not on the recognised theological grounds that baptism must follow faith, this congregation is essentially proclaiming itself as separate from the worldwide church. I don&#039;t think I could join a congregation which has this attitude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ElShaddai, I wish you well in your new church, but I have serious issues with the baptism question. For your new church is making an issue not of believers&#8217; baptism but of the mode of baptism. Yes, baptism is about &#8220;being a visible part of and accountable to a larger community&#8221;, but that larger community is not one congregation or denomination but the worldwide church. By requiring rebaptism as they are, and not on the recognised theological grounds that baptism must follow faith, this congregation is essentially proclaiming itself as separate from the worldwide church. I don&#8217;t think I could join a congregation which has this attitude.</p>
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		<title>By: The search for a modern Bible, part 4 &#171; He is sufficient</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-193</link>
		<dc:creator>The search for a modern Bible, part 4 &#171; He is sufficient</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:34:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-193</guid>
		<description>[...] He is sufficient       &#171; Thoughts on changing&#160;churches [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] He is sufficient       &laquo; Thoughts on changing&nbsp;churches [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-197</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 12:58:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-197</guid>
		<description>Juan - thanks for stopping by and for the encouragement!

Esteban - I didn&#039;t expect to find a place that fit so well, so fast. We were really struggling to know which way to look. My dad had gone to a bible study there once when he was visiting, so we decided to check it out. From the worship style to the depth and maturity of teaching to the care shown for our kids, it really feels like a church that could be &quot;home&quot;.

I will admit that my first response to the Baptist view/requirement of immersion baptism was a kneejerk negative, especially since I&#039;d already had a &quot;believer&#039;s baptism&quot; as an adult. But in understanding that being a Christian is not just about my relationship to Christ, but also being a visible part of and accountable to a larger community, I&#039;ve come to agreement and peace on this as a matter of conscience. I&#039;m continuing to read and learn about the baptist view, but not with the heart of a devil&#039;s advocate, but in full earnest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Juan &#8211; thanks for stopping by and for the encouragement!</p>
<p>Esteban &#8211; I didn&#8217;t expect to find a place that fit so well, so fast. We were really struggling to know which way to look. My dad had gone to a bible study there once when he was visiting, so we decided to check it out. From the worship style to the depth and maturity of teaching to the care shown for our kids, it really feels like a church that could be &#8220;home&#8221;.</p>
<p>I will admit that my first response to the Baptist view/requirement of immersion baptism was a kneejerk negative, especially since I&#8217;d already had a &#8220;believer&#8217;s baptism&#8221; as an adult. But in understanding that being a Christian is not just about my relationship to Christ, but also being a visible part of and accountable to a larger community, I&#8217;ve come to agreement and peace on this as a matter of conscience. I&#8217;m continuing to read and learn about the baptist view, but not with the heart of a devil&#8217;s advocate, but in full earnest.</p>
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		<title>By: voxstefani</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-196</link>
		<dc:creator>voxstefani</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m glad to hear that your family seems to have found a suitable church home, whose worship life, community character and learning opportunities suit you all. To find all of these things in a local church is considerably harder than it should be, so I deeply rejoice at your favorable new situation, and delight at your obvious spiritual satisfaction.

Your approach to the question of baptism seems quite sound and sensible to me (at least looking at it in terms of a broadly Evangelical perspective, which as you know, does not represent my own views). I don&#039;t mean to slight the very real and important differences between the pædobaptist and baptist views (some of which are being very ably discussed in some circles these days), but generally speaking, submitting to the discipline of one&#039;s congregation in matters that don&#039;t burden the conscience seems to me far more valuable than raising a stink over every imaginable fine point.

Esteban</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad to hear that your family seems to have found a suitable church home, whose worship life, community character and learning opportunities suit you all. To find all of these things in a local church is considerably harder than it should be, so I deeply rejoice at your favorable new situation, and delight at your obvious spiritual satisfaction.</p>
<p>Your approach to the question of baptism seems quite sound and sensible to me (at least looking at it in terms of a broadly Evangelical perspective, which as you know, does not represent my own views). I don&#8217;t mean to slight the very real and important differences between the pædobaptist and baptist views (some of which are being very ably discussed in some circles these days), but generally speaking, submitting to the discipline of one&#8217;s congregation in matters that don&#8217;t burden the conscience seems to me far more valuable than raising a stink over every imaginable fine point.</p>
<p>Esteban</p>
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		<title>By: Juan</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2007/09/10/thoughts-on-changing-churches/#comment-198</link>
		<dc:creator>Juan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 04:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Great article I hope you find a great church. It took me quite a while to find a church when we moved to San Diego. I just reminded myself to have fun with it.

Juan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article I hope you find a great church. It took me quite a while to find a church when we moved to San Diego. I just reminded myself to have fun with it.</p>
<p>Juan</p>
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