Comments on: Sheol and the Resurrection of the Dead http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/ Searching for wit and wisdom in a wilderness of words... Wed, 29 Jul 2009 11:51:30 +0000 hourly 1 By: preteristheresy http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-342 preteristheresy Wed, 19 Dec 2007 00:49:10 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-342 My site is strictly devoted to sharing heretical or absurd quotes made by Full Preterists to demonstrate the many errors and consequences of this system of interpreting bible prophecy. http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/ My site is strictly devoted to sharing heretical or absurd quotes made by Full Preterists to demonstrate the many errors and consequences of this system of interpreting bible prophecy.

http://preteristheresy.blogspot.com/

]]> By: Revelation 20: the complete fulfillment of the Old Covenant? « He is sufficient http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-336 Revelation 20: the complete fulfillment of the Old Covenant? « He is sufficient Sun, 28 Oct 2007 11:09:17 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-336 [...] Tags: law, millennium, new covenant, old covenant, preterism, resurrection If you missed the link in the comments on “Sheol and the Resurrection of the Dead“, be sure to check out Steve’s new [...] [...] Tags: law, millennium, new covenant, old covenant, preterism, resurrection If you missed the link in the comments on “Sheol and the Resurrection of the Dead“, be sure to check out Steve’s new [...]

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-335 ElShaddai Edwards Sat, 27 Oct 2007 23:56:38 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-335 Your grace is appreciated. I could say that I was writing quickly with two toddlers tugging on me, but that would be an excuse... I am looking forward to reading your new article later tonight or tomorrow morning (before they wake up!). Your grace is appreciated. I could say that I was writing quickly with two toddlers tugging on me, but that would be an excuse… I am looking forward to reading your new article later tonight or tomorrow morning (before they wake up!).

]]> By: Steve http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-334 Steve Sat, 27 Oct 2007 21:05:26 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-334 :D That was a graceful dismount, my friend! :D That was a graceful dismount, my friend!

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-333 ElShaddai Edwards Sat, 27 Oct 2007 20:53:19 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-333 <i>“The sea” is not the ocean! We’re dealing with apocalyptic imagery here.</i> I can't believe I wrote that... I knew that, really I did. “The sea” is not the ocean! We’re dealing with apocalyptic imagery here.

I can’t believe I wrote that… I knew that, really I did.

]]> By: Steve http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-332 Steve Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:48:23 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-332 <a href="http://undeception.wordpress.com/2007/10/26/the-millennium-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/" rel="nofollow"> Here it is</a>! Let me know what you think. Here it is! Let me know what you think.

]]> By: Steve http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-337 Steve Sat, 27 Oct 2007 18:01:42 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-337 "The sea" is not the ocean! We're dealing with apocalyptic imagery here. "The sea" is an Old Testament prophetic term, associated in many places with the Gentiles (for instance, the four beasts of Daniel 7 come up "out of the sea"). So not only would Old Covenant Israel be judged, but so would all who had died outside the covenant. However, "the depths" of the sea are also closely associated with "the grave" (refer to Jonah's lamentations in the fish). I think the key to this verse in Revelation is the phrase "the sea also": <em>nothing</em> will be left out of the Resurrection and subsequent judgment. I will address most, if not all, of the other issues presently. Just trying to finish it all up. “The sea” is not the ocean! We’re dealing with apocalyptic imagery here. “The sea” is an Old Testament prophetic term, associated in many places with the Gentiles (for instance, the four beasts of Daniel 7 come up “out of the sea”). So not only would Old Covenant Israel be judged, but so would all who had died outside the covenant. However, “the depths” of the sea are also closely associated with “the grave” (refer to Jonah’s lamentations in the fish). I think the key to this verse in Revelation is the phrase “the sea also”: nothing will be left out of the Resurrection and subsequent judgment.

I will address most, if not all, of the other issues presently. Just trying to finish it all up.

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-341 ElShaddai Edwards Sat, 27 Oct 2007 10:58:37 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-341 If the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev 20:4-6) includes the emptying of Sheol, then how do you account for the Rev 20:13, in which <i>"the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works."</i> It seems that those dead should have been included in the Resurrection of the Dead. I've not seen any account that claims that those who die at sea are held in different death state than other deaths. But, if the v.4-6 Resurrection of the Dead is constrained to the first-century martyrs, then Rev 20:13 applies to everyone else, including all those who have died since 70AD up to present time. Even if you back up a couple of verses to the great white throne judgment, note that those being judged are described as being "dead". If they'd been previously resurrected before the 1000 years, they would be alive. See also the part of verse 5 that I deliberately elided: <i>"The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed."</i> In the end, it really does depend on your view of the timing of the millennium. Amillennialism makes sense to me - we are in the millennium now, waiting and working while Christ conquers all enemies. If the Resurrection of the Dead (Rev 20:4-6) includes the emptying of Sheol, then how do you account for the Rev 20:13, in which “the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works.” It seems that those dead should have been included in the Resurrection of the Dead. I’ve not seen any account that claims that those who die at sea are held in different death state than other deaths.

But, if the v.4-6 Resurrection of the Dead is constrained to the first-century martyrs, then Rev 20:13 applies to everyone else, including all those who have died since 70AD up to present time. Even if you back up a couple of verses to the great white throne judgment, note that those being judged are described as being “dead”. If they’d been previously resurrected before the 1000 years, they would be alive.

See also the part of verse 5 that I deliberately elided: “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed.” In the end, it really does depend on your view of the timing of the millennium. Amillennialism makes sense to me – we are in the millennium now, waiting and working while Christ conquers all enemies.

]]> By: Steve http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-340 Steve Sat, 27 Oct 2007 05:30:45 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-340 I do not claim full understanding of this particular aspect myself. I can only say this: I believe that the Resurrection referred to in Scripture has occurred in its fullness (see my forthcoming blog). If the Resurrection of the Dead is the emptying of Sheol, then think of it this way: once Sheol is emptied, it can't be re-emptied. People who die today do not go to a holding ground (Sheol), so resurrection per se cannot recur indefinitely. My current understanding is that souls today are judged upon whether they accept Christ's lordship; if this is done, judgment is rendered and the spirit is made incorruptible, and the believer enters the New Jerusalem, wherein the suffering under the Law and the fear of our soul's mortality is alleviated once and for all. The unbeliever is judged immediately upon the point of no return, namely, death. There are a few different preterist takes on all this that I haven't finished parsing. I readily admit that I don't have all the answers, but then again, what realistic system subscribed to by honest people does not admit a few loose ends not entirely understood? I did not take up full preterism because it answered every mystery of eschatology, but because it simultaneously reduced the mystery drastically and then redistributed the remaining mysteries in a much more satisfactory fashion than any other viewpoint I have ever encountered. I hope this, and my blog, helps you understand my view a little. I do not claim full understanding of this particular aspect myself. I can only say this: I believe that the Resurrection referred to in Scripture has occurred in its fullness (see my forthcoming blog).

If the Resurrection of the Dead is the emptying of Sheol, then think of it this way: once Sheol is emptied, it can’t be re-emptied. People who die today do not go to a holding ground (Sheol), so resurrection per se cannot recur indefinitely. My current understanding is that souls today are judged upon whether they accept Christ’s lordship; if this is done, judgment is rendered and the spirit is made incorruptible, and the believer enters the New Jerusalem, wherein the suffering under the Law and the fear of our soul’s mortality is alleviated once and for all. The unbeliever is judged immediately upon the point of no return, namely, death.

There are a few different preterist takes on all this that I haven’t finished parsing. I readily admit that I don’t have all the answers, but then again, what realistic system subscribed to by honest people does not admit a few loose ends not entirely understood? I did not take up full preterism because it answered every mystery of eschatology, but because it simultaneously reduced the mystery drastically and then redistributed the remaining mysteries in a much more satisfactory fashion than any other viewpoint I have ever encountered.

I hope this, and my blog, helps you understand my view a little.

]]> By: Josh H. http://heissufficient.com/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/comment-page-1/#comment-339 Josh H. Sat, 27 Oct 2007 01:47:19 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/10/26/sheol-and-the-resurrection-of-the-dead/#comment-339 @ElShaddai: I'm not sure if I'm a partial preterist, a full-preterist or some mixture of one of these and an amillennialist. I am completely baffled by Revelation 20 and the 1,000 years. I'm pretty sure I would not take it literally. But I definitely do not have a problem with applying the "emptying of Sheol" theory to this passage you have quoted . Now I guess my question would be is your being uncomfortable due to Steve's parenthetical statement "or rather, been occuring"? Because I also raised my eyebrows at that point. This is because (even though I don't have it all hammered out) I have heretofore held the opinion that all dead souls from the beginning of time "slept" until AD70 in which the arose from their graves, were judged (a la sheep and goats) and are now in heaven or hell, respectively. Then from there on out souls immediately go to Heaven or Hell. But this "rather, been occuring" statement has me wondering... @Steve: Do believe that resurrections are taking place throughout history? Is this simply a way of saying what I just said in my next to last sentence to ElShaddai above? I am anxiously awaiting for more info. This is good stuff, guys! @ElShaddai: I’m not sure if I’m a partial preterist, a full-preterist or some mixture of one of these and an amillennialist. I am completely baffled by Revelation 20 and the 1,000 years. I’m pretty sure I would not take it literally. But I definitely do not have a problem with applying the “emptying of Sheol” theory to this passage you have quoted .

Now I guess my question would be is your being uncomfortable due to Steve’s parenthetical statement “or rather, been occuring”? Because I also raised my eyebrows at that point. This is because (even though I don’t have it all hammered out) I have heretofore held the opinion that all dead souls from the beginning of time “slept” until AD70 in which the arose from their graves, were judged (a la sheep and goats) and are now in heaven or hell, respectively. Then from there on out souls immediately go to Heaven or Hell. But this “rather, been occuring” statement has me wondering…

@Steve: Do believe that resurrections are taking place throughout history? Is this simply a way of saying what I just said in my next to last sentence to ElShaddai above? I am anxiously awaiting for more info.

This is good stuff, guys!

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