Comments on: Demon possession or the common cold? http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=demon-possession-or-the-common-cold A personal walk in a wilderness of words Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:07:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: brianfulthorp http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-590 brianfulthorp Thu, 29 May 2008 03:45:50 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-590 Thanks for the link to the memorial article, I had not realized he passed away. I am still working out my own understanding of the flaw of the excluded middle and how it all works out. Thanks for the link to the memorial article, I had not realized he passed away. I am still working out my own understanding of the flaw of the excluded middle and how it all works out.

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-592 ElShaddai Edwards Tue, 27 May 2008 18:48:32 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-592 Thanks for the reference, Brian. I've not heard of that, so I'll need to do some digging. I found the following as a starting point: <blockquote>In his classes Paul [Hiebert] articulated ideas later published in a 1982 essay, "The Flaw of the Excluded Middle," arguing that Western missionaries historically addressed the "natural" world of people and things and the spiritual world of God and eternity but failed appropriately to address the middle-range religious experience of folk religionists (of healings, visions, ancestral spirits, demons, and local deities). This failure, he claimed, has produced an unhealthy split-level Christianity in mission churches.</blockquote> Source: <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2007/005/9.9.html" rel="nofollow">Paul Hiebert: A Life Remembered</a> Thanks for the reference, Brian. I’ve not heard of that, so I’ll need to do some digging. I found the following as a starting point:

In his classes Paul [Hiebert] articulated ideas later published in a 1982 essay, “The Flaw of the Excluded Middle,” arguing that Western missionaries historically addressed the “natural” world of people and things and the spiritual world of God and eternity but failed appropriately to address the middle-range religious experience of folk religionists (of healings, visions, ancestral spirits, demons, and local deities). This failure, he claimed, has produced an unhealthy split-level Christianity in mission churches.

Source: Paul Hiebert: A Life Remembered

]]> By: brianfulthorp http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-591 brianfulthorp Tue, 27 May 2008 18:30:15 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-591 Ever heard of Hiebert's Law of the Excluded Middle? It helps a lot in understanding why we view the supernatural the way we do. Ever heard of Hiebert’s Law of the Excluded Middle? It helps a lot in understanding why we view the supernatural the way we do.

]]> By: Kevin Sam http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-587 Kevin Sam Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:37:43 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-587 Yes, we in the west don't hear much about these spiritualistic experiences that occur in the eastern or southern hemisphere. We tend to minimize or trivialize things like demonic possession and supernational healing from God. We are kind of sheltered from these things so it puts into question whether our worldview is even accurate. Perhaps the spiritualistic occurences in the south is a more accurate worldview than what we have been accustomed to. Yes, we in the west don’t hear much about these spiritualistic experiences that occur in the eastern or southern hemisphere. We tend to minimize or trivialize things like demonic possession and supernational healing from God. We are kind of sheltered from these things so it puts into question whether our worldview is even accurate. Perhaps the spiritualistic occurences in the south is a more accurate worldview than what we have been accustomed to.

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-586 ElShaddai Edwards Tue, 01 Jan 2008 06:59:43 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-586 @coldfire: Thanks for the comments. I'm definitely a proponent of understanding the original context of the scriptures, as it sounds like you are. If we read this as a first-century audience, does that make a stronger case for the reality of demons? @J.K. Gayle: I'm rather attracted to that image of the upper and lower stories. It's far too easy to spend all our time in the upper story "application" of scripture and not looking at the foundations. I'm intrigued also by your experiences in southeast Asia/Indonesia and would love to hear more about the reality of the spiritual world in those culture's day-to-day activities. @coldfire: Thanks for the comments. I’m definitely a proponent of understanding the original context of the scriptures, as it sounds like you are. If we read this as a first-century audience, does that make a stronger case for the reality of demons?

@J.K. Gayle: I’m rather attracted to that image of the upper and lower stories. It’s far too easy to spend all our time in the upper story “application” of scripture and not looking at the foundations. I’m intrigued also by your experiences in southeast Asia/Indonesia and would love to hear more about the reality of the spiritual world in those culture’s day-to-day activities.

]]> By: J. K. Gayle http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-589 J. K. Gayle Mon, 31 Dec 2007 14:47:56 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-589 Thanks for this. While coldfire is right, that we have different contexts over time and space, we're really stupid if we say Luke is, as John Dominic Crossan says he is, simply writing within a worldview that does not and should not touch ours. Even a modernist like Francis A. Schaeffer recognized our contemporary problem in epistemology is that we, very stupidly, divorce the "upper story" of significance in life or in the bible from the "lower story" of nature or science. N. T. Wright comments on C. S. Lewis's much more intelligent, and very anti-modernist statement, on how we tend either to play up or to play down too much the force of demons in OUR world in OUR time. Wright says: "I think we, in the western world, have often tended to dismiss as either nonexistent or irrelevant things that we don't understand. That's a very arrogant thing. People in many, many other parts of the world are perfectly aware that there are hidden forces in the world and around us, some of which are malevolent, and whatever language you use for them, you've got to do business with that stuff." Wright elsewhere notes how we in the west today talk about forces (i.e., economic forces, political forces, and such) as if they are animated spiritually. This is not all that different from what you see in your own families as colds. For two decades (1 in Vietnam and 1 in Java and Sumatra) my family lived among peoples who language about colds and wind and breath suggested spiritual reality and activity. This is far different from the superstitious "God bless you" we respond in a knee jerk, politely, when someone in the West sneezes in English (keeping up that wall between our upper stories and lower stories). What I and my Western family experienced was no wall between the spiritual world and the material. Dreams, especially as related by the shaman of a Karo Batak village in North Sumatra, or realities evoked in the Hindi dances on Bali, or supernatural abilities of a kidnapper offering a child up to spirits in exchange for powers in Ba Ngoi Viet Nam could not sufficiently be explained by "medical knowledge." I think Dr. Luke, and the ancient Greeks too, was as spiritual in his intelligence as he was material. Thanks for this. While coldfire is right, that we have different contexts over time and space, we’re really stupid if we say Luke is, as John Dominic Crossan says he is, simply writing within a worldview that does not and should not touch ours. Even a modernist like Francis A. Schaeffer recognized our contemporary problem in epistemology is that we, very stupidly, divorce the “upper story” of significance in life or in the bible from the “lower story” of nature or science.

N. T. Wright comments on C. S. Lewis’s much more intelligent, and very anti-modernist statement, on how we tend either to play up or to play down too much the force of demons in OUR world in OUR time. Wright says:

“I think we, in the western world, have often tended to dismiss as either nonexistent or irrelevant things that we don’t understand. That’s a very arrogant thing. People in many, many other parts of the world are perfectly aware that there are hidden forces in the world and around us, some of which are malevolent, and whatever language you use for them, you’ve got to do business with that stuff.”

Wright elsewhere notes how we in the west today talk about forces (i.e., economic forces, political forces, and such) as if they are animated spiritually. This is not all that different from what you see in your own families as colds. For two decades (1 in Vietnam and 1 in Java and Sumatra) my family lived among peoples who language about colds and wind and breath suggested spiritual reality and activity. This is far different from the superstitious “God bless you” we respond in a knee jerk, politely, when someone in the West sneezes in English (keeping up that wall between our upper stories and lower stories). What I and my Western family experienced was no wall between the spiritual world and the material. Dreams, especially as related by the shaman of a Karo Batak village in North Sumatra, or realities evoked in the Hindi dances on Bali, or supernatural abilities of a kidnapper offering a child up to spirits in exchange for powers in Ba Ngoi Viet Nam could not sufficiently be explained by “medical knowledge.” I think Dr. Luke, and the ancient Greeks too, was as spiritual in his intelligence as he was material.

]]> By: coldfire http://heissufficient.com/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-588 coldfire Sun, 30 Dec 2007 23:13:56 +0000 http://heissufficient.net/2007/12/30/demon-possession-or-the-common-cold/#comment-588 This is a great question, but an impossible one to answer. I believe the Bible has immense power, but we have to read it in the context of the first century. To compare the Bible to today's medical knowledge is a non-sequitar. Luke was writing to people in his own context, and we must attempt to read it as one of those people. This is a great question, but an impossible one to answer. I believe the Bible has immense power, but we have to read it in the context of the first century. To compare the Bible to today’s medical knowledge is a non-sequitar. Luke was writing to people in his own context, and we must attempt to read it as one of those people.

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