Comments on: The 7th day: work and rest in Hebrews 4 http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4 A personal walk in a wilderness of words Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:07:24 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1312 ElShaddai Edwards Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:33:41 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1312 Steve - I'm through Dr. Walton's introduction; you're right, it is a fascinating presentation. It's nice to hear him introduce the topic within the context of ANE culture and deliberately put aside modern theological bias. Thanks for the providing the link! <strong>Update</strong>: finished listening to the entire presentation. Very interesting, though I suspect it would make some literalists' blood boil. The corresponding concept to think about is whether apocalyptic literature, including Revelation, could/should also be viewed functionally and not materially. The cultural context of course would be different inasmuch as we're not dealing with ancient myth and legend, but actual recorded history. Steve – I’m through Dr. Walton’s introduction; you’re right, it is a fascinating presentation. It’s nice to hear him introduce the topic within the context of ANE culture and deliberately put aside modern theological bias. Thanks for the providing the link!

Update: finished listening to the entire presentation. Very interesting, though I suspect it would make some literalists’ blood boil. The corresponding concept to think about is whether apocalyptic literature, including Revelation, could/should also be viewed functionally and not materially. The cultural context of course would be different inasmuch as we’re not dealing with ancient myth and legend, but actual recorded history.

]]> By: Kevin Sam http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1310 Kevin Sam Wed, 30 Apr 2008 05:17:33 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1310 This post really made me think. To think of the 7th day of rest other than physical rest is almost unthinkable for my traditional theological upbringing too. I have never thought of God’s rest as a stretch of time between End of Creation and the day of judgment, but I do not consider the 7-days (6-days of creation) as necessarily literal either. It might be symbolic of 7 million or whatever years. Moreover, I can’t see this “rest” as God taking his hands off creation and letting it go its course. That would be deism. So I feel that the analogy of “spiritual rest through Christ” makes a lot of sense to me so far. That link from Dave was helpful. This post really made me think. To think of the 7th day of rest other than physical rest is almost unthinkable for my traditional theological upbringing too. I have never thought of God’s rest as a stretch of time between End of Creation and the day of judgment, but I do not consider the 7-days (6-days of creation) as necessarily literal either. It might be symbolic of 7 million or whatever years. Moreover, I can’t see this “rest” as God taking his hands off creation and letting it go its course. That would be deism. So I feel that the analogy of “spiritual rest through Christ” makes a lot of sense to me so far. That link from Dave was helpful.

]]> By: Steve http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1311 Steve Wed, 30 Apr 2008 02:06:53 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1311 <em>Whereas “the creation machine” is guided by the natural laws that God put in place, which don’t require regular attention and input in order to run properly (other than the annoying tendencies of inertia and entropy to cause the whole system to eventually stop).</em> - Point taken. I thought of putting it in terms of writing a software program, pressing execute, and allowing it to run. As you have suggested, this might be a more apt analogy. <em>Or do you see God as involved “daily” in the hands-on manipulation of creation? If so, how do we separate that from the responsibility of dominion given to mankind?</em> - And then again, I chose the spreadsheet analogy to avoid the "deism" accusation. I want to make the distinction between having to create physical matter and natural laws and being in control of the affairs of the universe. <em>Am I reading you correctly that you see this as a statement that the spiritual work of man is in contrast to the work of God and we do not enter His rest until we’ve spiritually aligned ourselves with Christ?... Vss.3:18-19 would seem to support that:</em> - Good point, and I believe it does. As I pointed out, the author of Hebrews arguably shows the inception of the rest as a then-current reality in 4.3: "for we who have believed enter the rest" - keep in mind that the Greek here can (and probably should) be translated, "For we who believed are entering the rest..." And then it is spoken of as if already attained in v. 10, "For the person <em>who has entered</em> His rest <em>has rested</em> from his own works, just as God did from His." Hebrews would align here with Pauline theology's emphasis on faith over works of the Law quite well. I don't see how any future resurrected body could fulfill that "rest" from one's own works. <em>Were God’s works of Creation physical or spiritual? And is His rest, either “settling in” or “hands off the wheel”, necessarily of the same nature?</em> - Great questions! The way I understand it, physical matter was not the issue in Genesis 1: it was the ordering of the functions of the universe that is pictured there. Genesis 1 is the affirmation that God set the cosmos in order. Did He rest from this? Well, I would say so, since He was finished. In fact, some of the original functions of the universe set in place in Genesis 1 are affirmed even after the Flood: <blockquote> As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night will never cease. - Genesis 8:22</blockquote> (I <em><b>strongly</em></b> urge you to check out the presentation I linked to above. It goes into more detail on the subject of Genesis 1) Whereas “the creation machine” is guided by the natural laws that God put in place, which don’t require regular attention and input in order to run properly (other than the annoying tendencies of inertia and entropy to cause the whole system to eventually stop).
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Point taken. I thought of putting it in terms of writing a software program, pressing execute, and allowing it to run. As you have suggested, this might be a more apt analogy.

Or do you see God as involved “daily” in the hands-on manipulation of creation? If so, how do we separate that from the responsibility of dominion given to mankind?
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And then again, I chose the spreadsheet analogy to avoid the “deism” accusation. I want to make the distinction between having to create physical matter and natural laws and being in control of the affairs of the universe.

Am I reading you correctly that you see this as a statement that the spiritual work of man is in contrast to the work of God and we do not enter His rest until we’ve spiritually aligned ourselves with Christ?… Vss.3:18-19 would seem to support that:
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Good point, and I believe it does. As I pointed out, the author of Hebrews arguably shows the inception of the rest as a then-current reality in 4.3: “for we who have believed enter the rest” – keep in mind that the Greek here can (and probably should) be translated, “For we who believed are entering the rest…” And then it is spoken of as if already attained in v. 10, “For the person who has entered His rest has rested from his own works, just as God did from His.” Hebrews would align here with Pauline theology’s emphasis on faith over works of the Law quite well. I don’t see how any future resurrected body could fulfill that “rest” from one’s own works.

Were God’s works of Creation physical or spiritual? And is His rest, either “settling in” or “hands off the wheel”, necessarily of the same nature?
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Great questions! The way I understand it, physical matter was not the issue in Genesis 1: it was the ordering of the functions of the universe that is pictured there. Genesis 1 is the affirmation that God set the cosmos in order. Did He rest from this? Well, I would say so, since He was finished. In fact, some of the original functions of the universe set in place in Genesis 1 are affirmed even after the Flood:

As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease. – Genesis 8:22

(I strongly urge you to check out the presentation I linked to above. It goes into more detail on the subject of Genesis 1)

]]> By: TC http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1309 TC Tue, 29 Apr 2008 17:09:40 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1309 Elshaddai, I like the "now/not yet" tension in this case. But neither should we dismiss the eschatological new creation, which includes our new bodies (Rom 8:18-25). Elshaddai, I like the “now/not yet” tension in this case. But neither should we dismiss the eschatological new creation, which includes our new bodies (Rom 8:18-25).

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1307 ElShaddai Edwards Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:13:12 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1307 Steve - thanks for the great thoughts. I wonder if there's a difference between "the creation machine" and a budgeting spreadsheet, in that latter depends on regular input in order for the data to be up to date. Whereas "the creation machine" is guided by the natural laws that God put in place, which don't require regular attention and input in order to run properly (other than the annoying tendencies of inertia and entropy to cause the whole system to eventually stop). Or do you see God as involved "daily" in the hands-on manipulation of creation? If so, how do we separate that from the responsibility of dominion given to mankind? Also, I'm not sure about the "rested from his own works" comment in v.10. Am I reading you correctly that you see this as a statement that the spiritual work of man is <i>in contrast</i> to the work of God and we do not enter His rest until we've spiritually aligned ourselves with Christ? Vss.3:18-19 would seem to support that: <blockquote>And to whom did he vow that they should not enter his rest, if not to those who had refused to believe? We see, then, it was unbelief that prevented their entering. (REB)</blockquote> Were God's works of Creation physical or spiritual? And is His rest, either "settling in" or "hands off the wheel", necessarily of the same nature? Steve – thanks for the great thoughts. I wonder if there’s a difference between “the creation machine” and a budgeting spreadsheet, in that latter depends on regular input in order for the data to be up to date. Whereas “the creation machine” is guided by the natural laws that God put in place, which don’t require regular attention and input in order to run properly (other than the annoying tendencies of inertia and entropy to cause the whole system to eventually stop).

Or do you see God as involved “daily” in the hands-on manipulation of creation? If so, how do we separate that from the responsibility of dominion given to mankind?

Also, I’m not sure about the “rested from his own works” comment in v.10. Am I reading you correctly that you see this as a statement that the spiritual work of man is in contrast to the work of God and we do not enter His rest until we’ve spiritually aligned ourselves with Christ? Vss.3:18-19 would seem to support that:

And to whom did he vow that they should not enter his rest, if not to those who had refused to believe? We see, then, it was unbelief that prevented their entering. (REB)

Were God’s works of Creation physical or spiritual? And is His rest, either “settling in” or “hands off the wheel”, necessarily of the same nature?

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1308 ElShaddai Edwards Tue, 29 Apr 2008 13:46:55 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1308 Yes, I agree that Heb 4:11 and Rev 14:13 are cut from the same cloth, as is the statement by Lane. The question is whether this is regarding our present spiritual reality <i>in Christ</i>, as Steve argues, or our future physical hope <i>in the resurrection</i>. Or both in a "now, not yet" scenario as Greg described. Yes, I agree that Heb 4:11 and Rev 14:13 are cut from the same cloth, as is the statement by Lane.

The question is whether this is regarding our present spiritual reality in Christ, as Steve argues, or our future physical hope in the resurrection. Or both in a “now, not yet” scenario as Greg described.

]]> By: TC http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1306 TC Tue, 29 Apr 2008 04:44:50 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1306 Here's something I found in William L. Lane's commentary in the WBC series: "In conjunction, vv. 9-10 anticipate the festival of the priestly people of God in the heavenly sanctuary, celebrating in the presence of God the eternal Sabbath with unceasing praise and adoration." Here’s something I found in William L. Lane’s commentary in the WBC series:

“In conjunction, vv. 9-10 anticipate the festival of the priestly people of God in the heavenly sanctuary, celebrating in the presence of God the eternal Sabbath with unceasing praise and adoration.”

]]> By: TC http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1305 TC Tue, 29 Apr 2008 00:48:51 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1305 @Elshaddai, I take Genesis 1 as literal. What do we do with Matt 11:28, "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest"? I do see a correspondence with Heb 4:11 and Rev 14:13. What do you think? @Elshaddai, I take Genesis 1 as literal.

What do we do with Matt 11:28, “Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest”?

I do see a correspondence with Heb 4:11 and Rev 14:13. What do you think?

]]> By: ElShaddai Edwards http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1304 ElShaddai Edwards Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:54:25 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1304 Thanks for the link, Dave. That was about as on-topic as you can get! I appreciate the perspective on this issue and will look up some of the footnotes when I get the chance. Thanks for the link, Dave. That was about as on-topic as you can get! I appreciate the perspective on this issue and will look up some of the footnotes when I get the chance.

]]> By: Dave http://heissufficient.com/2008/04/28/the-7th-day-work-and-rest-in-hebrews-4/#comment-1303 Dave Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:17:56 +0000 http://heissufficient.wordpress.com/?p=705#comment-1303 If you're interested in the YEC position, here is a decent article on it: http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/579 An excerpt that kind of sums it up: "Hebrews 4:1-11 teaches that the seventh day of Creation Week was a parallel to the spiritual rest found through Christ alone. Only those who have believed in Christ enter this rest. If the Bible was speaking of an actual continuation of the seventh day of rest, then all would already be in this rest. The rest referred to is obviously a spiritual rest." If you’re interested in the YEC position, here is a decent article on it:

http://creationontheweb.com/content/view/579

An excerpt that kind of sums it up: “Hebrews 4:1-11 teaches that the seventh day of Creation Week was a parallel to the spiritual rest found through Christ alone. Only those who have believed in Christ enter this rest. If the Bible was speaking of an actual continuation of the seventh day of rest, then all would already be in this rest. The rest referred to is obviously a spiritual rest.”

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