Comments on: Pruning the vine, vertigo and the powers of this dark world

By: Peter Kirk

Peter Kirk — Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:23:17 +0000

I have just got back to reading blogs after a few days away. This is a fascinating discussion, thanks for carrying it on.

I don’t think I’m saying Brian is wrong. Just, perhaps, that there is a bit more to this than he explicitly wrote.

By: ElShaddai Edwards

ElShaddai Edwards — Fri, 30 May 2008 01:32:46 +0000

Good thoughts, Jeff – thanks for the comments, especially regarding discipline.

Sometimes Satan can influence us to succumb to our own sinful desires which results in something physical happening and God uses it to discipline us.

That’s worth chewing on – thank you.

By: Scripture Zealot

Scripture Zealot — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:59:31 +0000

Unless I’m misunderstanding it, I would add our own sinful desires (James 1:4) to physical, spiritual (demonic attack) or the pruning discipline of God (divine).

I would say that all hardship would include God’s discipline (Hebrews 12:5) as defined by Thayer:

1) the whole training and education of children (which relates to the cultivation of mind and morals, and employs for this purpose now commands and admonitions, now reproof and punishment) It also includes the training and care of the body
2) whatever in adults also cultivates the soul, especially by correcting mistakes and curbing passions.
2a) instruction which aims at increasing virtue
2b) chastisement, chastening, (of the evils with which God visits men for their amendment)

So I would say at least two are always involved although the discipline may not be a cause but is always involved according to His providence and sovereignty. (possibly Lamentations 3:37-38 although this is regarding the disciplining of Israel)

I would agree with Peter that there is no need to separate them and I would say that sometimes we shouldn’t even try because we just don’t know.

Sometimes Satan can influence us to succumb to our own sinful desires which results in something physical happening and God uses it to discipline us.

Just some musings subject to change.

My wife had vertigo once. How awful for them.
Jeff

By: still yet more on spiritual warfare « συνεσταυρωμαι: living the crucified life

Thu, 29 May 2008 18:28:55 +0000

[...] yet more on spiritual warfare This is in response to a post by ElShaddai Edwards and somewhat in response to Peter Kirk (whose comments I appreciate). [...]

By: Brian

Brian — Thu, 29 May 2008 18:05:59 +0000

My reason for point out Heibert’s theory of the flaw of the excluded middle was to point out why many westerns tend to have a problem with ideas such as spiritual warfare. For westerners things can be explained either in terms of science or the supernatural (ultimate life issues) – but not necessarily because of devils and demons, etc. We’re too sophisticated for all that. Devils and demons are things one hears about in third world countries, not in the western world – we’ve move beyond all that – catch my drift? I put more on my blog to keep from commenting too long.

By: ElShaddai Edwards

ElShaddai Edwards — Thu, 29 May 2008 05:05:04 +0000

@Brian: the discipline of prayer is something I’m working on. Not very well, so there’s a lot of groaning, but I’m working on it.

I think Peter’s perspective is that all three tiers are interconnected and that any given event or ailment can’t just be limited to one tier. If that’s also your conclusion, then I apologize for misreading.

@Bryan: I’m dreading a whole summer of this, but the physical therapy doctor just yesterday seemed to think that it wasn’t inner ear related, based on her eye movements. The worst is when she suddenly wakes up in the middle of the night, dizzy and nauseous, for no apparent reason.

By: brianfulthorp

brianfulthorp — Thu, 29 May 2008 04:02:31 +0000

Well again, I think this is why prayer is important – I don’t think it has to be an either or situation nor does it have to be all the above – though it could be. Sometimes our own flesh drives us to the point of wearing down – sometimes it is the enemy – James 1 tells us that as we face trials of many kinds if we are unsure about things, ask God for wisdom in discerning the nature of the trial/situation.

I guess I am still working this all out…is Peter’s response saying I am wrong or looking at it the wrong way?

By: Bryan

Bryan — Thu, 29 May 2008 01:56:46 +0000

I definitely agree with Peter’s response. In fact, there are a couple of issues I’ve dealt with that I see in just such a light.

My regards to your family, I had a temporary case of vertigo that lasted a whole summer once.