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	<title>Comments on: Oxford University Press and the ESV Apocrypha</title>
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	<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/</link>
	<description>Searching for wit and wisdom in a wilderness of words...</description>
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		<title>By: L. Wells</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3144</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:34:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Afternoon CD.First of all I am not opposed to liberal or conservative scholarship, being a moderate I glean knowledge from each, and have disagreements with each, depending the issue.Biblish seems a term that works. Though I do not oppose translations that are more idiomatic for private use, I just don&#039;t happen to use them a whole lot personally. My biggest issue with idiomatic word selection is that it loses a certain poetic presence in public reading. I&#039;m not opposed to the language used in the KJV/NKJV either, though it isn&#039;t a smooth reading English for common everyday usage. This is another reason the NRSV is my translation of choice, it seems the most balanced between stately English and smooth readability, though it is king of neither.Being aware of conservative and/or liberal bias is &lt;em&gt;precisely why&lt;/em&gt; I don&#039;t mind it. My concern would be for those who pick up a Bible and are not aware of a particular bias. This is where I get on my soapbox about being well footnoted where a clear choice has been made in translation and there could just as easily be another rendering just as, if not more accurate than the one chosen for the text itself.I do not think that traditional wording should ever trump correct translation. I simply feel that where a traditional term can be used that does not skew the meaning of the translation, it should be used rather than some idiomatic, or even colloquial term. As stated in my last post, I prefer the rendering of &#039;young woman&#039; or &#039;maiden&#039; over and above virgin in the Almah verse because it is clearly a better rendering. That is choosing accuracy over tradition.I don&#039;t know why you&#039;d say I don&#039;t support the Ryken approach. Unless I am mistaken (if so I apologize), Ryken supports word for word translation as opposed to dynamic equivalence. I too prefer formal translation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Afternoon CD.First of all I am not opposed to liberal or conservative scholarship, being a moderate I glean knowledge from each, and have disagreements with each, depending the issue.Biblish seems a term that works. Though I do not oppose translations that are more idiomatic for private use, I just don&#8217;t happen to use them a whole lot personally. My biggest issue with idiomatic word selection is that it loses a certain poetic presence in public reading. I&#8217;m not opposed to the language used in the KJV/NKJV either, though it isn&#8217;t a smooth reading English for common everyday usage. This is another reason the NRSV is my translation of choice, it seems the most balanced between stately English and smooth readability, though it is king of neither.Being aware of conservative and/or liberal bias is <em>precisely why</em> I don&#8217;t mind it. My concern would be for those who pick up a Bible and are not aware of a particular bias. This is where I get on my soapbox about being well footnoted where a clear choice has been made in translation and there could just as easily be another rendering just as, if not more accurate than the one chosen for the text itself.I do not think that traditional wording should ever trump correct translation. I simply feel that where a traditional term can be used that does not skew the meaning of the translation, it should be used rather than some idiomatic, or even colloquial term. As stated in my last post, I prefer the rendering of &#8216;young woman&#8217; or &#8216;maiden&#8217; over and above virgin in the Almah verse because it is clearly a better rendering. That is choosing accuracy over tradition.I don&#8217;t know why you&#8217;d say I don&#8217;t support the Ryken approach. Unless I am mistaken (if so I apologize), Ryken supports word for word translation as opposed to dynamic equivalence. I too prefer formal translation.</p>
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		<title>By: CD-Host</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3131</link>
		<dc:creator>CD-Host</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3131</guid>
		<description> In your post on Mark 1:41 you say that the ESV translators remove a footnote from the NRSV.  Was that a typo?  They weren’t revising the NRSV.  I only have my accordance software RSV here, and it doesn’t have the notes with it, so I have no way to see if the RSV had a note there or not.

I forgot to reply to this.  No it wasn&#039;t a typo.  Remember the ESV claims to be engaged in scholarship.  They don&#039;t claim to be doing a minor update and revision of the RSV in line with conservative principles totally ignoring the last 50 years of biblical scholarship.  That being the case they are supposed to be aware of the scholarship, on their verses.  But even if that wasn&#039;t true any claim to scholarship would require knowledge within the RSV family which certainly include any changes made by the NRSV translation committee.     But even if they didn&#039;t intend to do any scholarship at all and do nothing more than use the RSV, the most authoritative and newest RSV based commentary is the Navarre bible translation (New Vulgate/RSV).  And yes this has standard notes on this topic.   So take your pick, were they dishonest in not having done any scholarship at all or were they dishonest in having removed a footnote to support their theology?  I figure given the names associated and their behavior on other issues, the later.

 L Wells --

OK that&#039;s an odd list but I agree the ESV fits it.  
1)  Likes the NA27 over the TR but not liberal scholarship
2)  Likes traditional wording a few places (as per the RSV) but not the kind of traditional language in the KJV/NKJV.  Essentially liking what David Ker above calls &quot;biblish&quot;.  
3)  Doesn&#039;t mind conservative bias even though aware of it
4)  Understands the NRSV is generally more accurate but thinks the #2 outweighs that.  
5)  Acknowledges what the ESV actually is, and doesn&#039;t support the Ryken approach to translation.

So you&#039;ve created a set of criteria on which the ESV is actually the best fit.  Can you understand though that this list is essentially unique to you?  It is a very unusual set of weightings and cutoff points.  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> In your post on Mark 1:41 you say that the ESV translators remove a footnote from the NRSV.  Was that a typo?  They weren’t revising the NRSV.  I only have my accordance software RSV here, and it doesn’t have the notes with it, so I have no way to see if the RSV had a note there or not.</p>
<p>I forgot to reply to this.  No it wasn&#8217;t a typo.  Remember the ESV claims to be engaged in scholarship.  They don&#8217;t claim to be doing a minor update and revision of the RSV in line with conservative principles totally ignoring the last 50 years of biblical scholarship.  That being the case they are supposed to be aware of the scholarship, on their verses.  But even if that wasn&#8217;t true any claim to scholarship would require knowledge within the RSV family which certainly include any changes made by the NRSV translation committee.     But even if they didn&#8217;t intend to do any scholarship at all and do nothing more than use the RSV, the most authoritative and newest RSV based commentary is the Navarre bible translation (New Vulgate/RSV).  And yes this has standard notes on this topic.   So take your pick, were they dishonest in not having done any scholarship at all or were they dishonest in having removed a footnote to support their theology?  I figure given the names associated and their behavior on other issues, the later.</p>
<p> L Wells &#8211;</p>
<p>OK that&#8217;s an odd list but I agree the ESV fits it.  <br />
1)  Likes the NA27 over the TR but not liberal scholarship<br />
2)  Likes traditional wording a few places (as per the RSV) but not the kind of traditional language in the KJV/NKJV.  Essentially liking what David Ker above calls &#8220;biblish&#8221;.  <br />
3)  Doesn&#8217;t mind conservative bias even though aware of it<br />
4)  Understands the NRSV is generally more accurate but thinks the #2 outweighs that.  <br />
5)  Acknowledges what the ESV actually is, and doesn&#8217;t support the Ryken approach to translation.</p>
<p>So you&#8217;ve created a set of criteria on which the ESV is actually the best fit.  Can you understand though that this list is essentially unique to you?  It is a very unusual set of weightings and cutoff points.  </p>
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		<title>By: L. Wells</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3128</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 03:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3128</guid>
		<description>Good evening CD. When I say theological override, I&#039;m not sure I mean it exactly the way you do. What I mean by that still fits the realm of translation, but leaning more on the side of traditional rendering of word selection when it could go in more than one direction. Now concerning the Almah passage, I prefer &#039;young woman&#039; or &#039;maiden&#039; because I think that is simply a more accurate translation.All I&#039;m really saying I guess is that on occasion the NRSV abandons terminology we in the Church are accustomed to, for the sake of readability I&#039;d say. I don&#039;t feel it is due to theological bias, or an attempt at pressing any sort of agenda, because the meaning is retained, as in the case of Romans 3.25, the NRSV has replaced the term &#039;expiation&#039; from the RSV, with &#039;sacrifice of atonement&#039; which is the same thing, only expiation is a term long familiar in Church language, which is something I feel should be preserved in public reading. Here the ESV translators do show their theological flavor by rendering it &#039;propitiation&#039; which has an added meaning of satisfying wrath, rather than simply covering over sin which is the implication of &#039;expiation&#039;. Still it is a plausible rendering, so it&#039;s not incorrect per se, and could possibly be more accurate. Rendering it &#039;expiation&#039; could also be charged with theological bias for that matter. I contend that it is impossible to translate without interpreting to a greater or lesser degree. The remedy, as I believe you might concur with, is footnotes.Concerning the KJV and NKJV, I do use both of these at times in private reading for the sake of their beauty and cadence, and because it gives me a comparison of a translation which relies more heavily on the Masoretic Text and Textus Receptus, which are in my estimation less reliable overall than the texts used in the RSV/NRSV/ESV tradition, but as I said, it is to compare over against these translations so that I get renderings from both schools of thought regarding the manuscripts. Paradoxically, this is also the reason I think the ESV is in one way superior to them, not so much in translation, but in the original manuscripts themselves. Had the NKJV used the NA manuscripts and the Septuagint more, who knows how good it could&#039;ve been? One thing I will say in regard to the NKJV is that it is well footnoted. When I first became familiar with the ESV I thought it would be better than the NRSV. Because it was a conservative revision of the RSV, it would be based upon the best manuscripts, and would retain traditional terminology. True enough it does this, but it also has more problems than I thought it would. My problem for the longest time with the NRSV was that I anticipated to find a thoroughly liberal translation full of liberal bias. This is not what I have found over the long haul. The ESV has more renderings that could be considered conservative bias than the NRSV has that could be called liberal bias.  I actually prefer the 2001 edition over the 2007 edition because I feel this bias is not seen as often in it. Another issue with the ESV is that I don&#039;t feel it is footnoted very well, which is an area the NRSV seems to surpass all others. I do feel the NRSV to be the most accurate translation available, and it is my main one in my daily reading, I just wish it had retained more traditional terminology and a more stately English. My only real defense of the ESV here is that I feel it beats the other recent translations, and I probably wouldn&#039;t have a big problem with it at all if it were only better footnoted, because the footnotes are every bit as much a part of the translation as the renderings in the text themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good evening CD. When I say theological override, I&#8217;m not sure I mean it exactly the way you do. What I mean by that still fits the realm of translation, but leaning more on the side of traditional rendering of word selection when it could go in more than one direction. Now concerning the Almah passage, I prefer &#8216;young woman&#8217; or &#8216;maiden&#8217; because I think that is simply a more accurate translation.All I&#8217;m really saying I guess is that on occasion the NRSV abandons terminology we in the Church are accustomed to, for the sake of readability I&#8217;d say. I don&#8217;t feel it is due to theological bias, or an attempt at pressing any sort of agenda, because the meaning is retained, as in the case of Romans 3.25, the NRSV has replaced the term &#8216;expiation&#8217; from the RSV, with &#8217;sacrifice of atonement&#8217; which is the same thing, only expiation is a term long familiar in Church language, which is something I feel should be preserved in public reading. Here the ESV translators do show their theological flavor by rendering it &#8216;propitiation&#8217; which has an added meaning of satisfying wrath, rather than simply covering over sin which is the implication of &#8216;expiation&#8217;. Still it is a plausible rendering, so it&#8217;s not incorrect per se, and could possibly be more accurate. Rendering it &#8216;expiation&#8217; could also be charged with theological bias for that matter. I contend that it is impossible to translate without interpreting to a greater or lesser degree. The remedy, as I believe you might concur with, is footnotes.Concerning the KJV and NKJV, I do use both of these at times in private reading for the sake of their beauty and cadence, and because it gives me a comparison of a translation which relies more heavily on the Masoretic Text and Textus Receptus, which are in my estimation less reliable overall than the texts used in the RSV/NRSV/ESV tradition, but as I said, it is to compare over against these translations so that I get renderings from both schools of thought regarding the manuscripts. Paradoxically, this is also the reason I think the ESV is in one way superior to them, not so much in translation, but in the original manuscripts themselves. Had the NKJV used the NA manuscripts and the Septuagint more, who knows how good it could&#8217;ve been? One thing I will say in regard to the NKJV is that it is well footnoted. When I first became familiar with the ESV I thought it would be better than the NRSV. Because it was a conservative revision of the RSV, it would be based upon the best manuscripts, and would retain traditional terminology. True enough it does this, but it also has more problems than I thought it would. My problem for the longest time with the NRSV was that I anticipated to find a thoroughly liberal translation full of liberal bias. This is not what I have found over the long haul. The ESV has more renderings that could be considered conservative bias than the NRSV has that could be called liberal bias.  I actually prefer the 2001 edition over the 2007 edition because I feel this bias is not seen as often in it. Another issue with the ESV is that I don&#8217;t feel it is footnoted very well, which is an area the NRSV seems to surpass all others. I do feel the NRSV to be the most accurate translation available, and it is my main one in my daily reading, I just wish it had retained more traditional terminology and a more stately English. My only real defense of the ESV here is that I feel it beats the other recent translations, and I probably wouldn&#8217;t have a big problem with it at all if it were only better footnoted, because the footnotes are every bit as much a part of the translation as the renderings in the text themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: CD-Host</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3127</link>
		<dc:creator>CD-Host</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Aug 2008 01:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3127</guid>
		<description>L. Wells --

I would say you are the first person who has put together a list which matches the ESV.  And I&#039;m glad you are willing to admit what is going on is a theological override of the text and not translation.  Stately, traditional (with overrides), high reading level and vocabulary.  I&#039;ll grant the ESV meets the criteria you&#039;ve named.  OK so that is one.  

Now the question for you given your list: why not the KJV, NKJV?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>L. Wells &#8211;</p>
<p>I would say you are the first person who has put together a list which matches the ESV.  And I&#8217;m glad you are willing to admit what is going on is a theological override of the text and not translation.  Stately, traditional (with overrides), high reading level and vocabulary.  I&#8217;ll grant the ESV meets the criteria you&#8217;ve named.  OK so that is one.  </p>
<p>Now the question for you given your list: why not the KJV, NKJV?</p>
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		<title>By: L. Wells</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3126</link>
		<dc:creator>L. Wells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3126</guid>
		<description>Jody it turns out I am your neighbor to the South down here in AL. I am a layman and am studying to become a Worship Leader, and am still in discernment about becoming a Pastoral Leader and Lay Preacher.OK, back to the topic. I tend to have roughly the same concerns as you Jody, about the ESV and the NRSV. Both have problems with the whole issue of gender relative pronouns. The ESV seems inconsistent about it&#039;s choices at times, while as you mentioned, the NRSV sometimes skews the echo effect of messianic passages, so to the reader who wasn&#039;t already aware of their messianic nature the link between OT and NT passages may never be picked up on. That being said, the NRSV seems to be highly accurate even in these situations, though I would prefer in this instance a more traditional rendering in the OT passages, so that the link is clarion(yes a theological override).  I also agree the NRSV reads exceptionally well, and for the most part remains fairly stately for such a smooth reader. However, it does tend, as you stated, to lose some of it&#039;s beauty in poetic passages on occasion for the sake, I assume, of readability. I also don&#039;t like how it abandons traditional Church language, such as expiation, or propitiation in places. This is one reason I do like the ESV. I&#039;m a little different than most I suppose, but I like the Bible to read in a stately English, that sounds different than the way we talk in everyday conversation. I know this sounds old fashioned and nostalgic, and perhaps it is, but particularly as a lay reader I tend to think a more stately English tends to almost command a certain degree of respect from the hearers of the reading, drawing them more effectively into the reading itself. There is a certain amount of theatrics(for lack of a better term) involved in liturgy, and the more dignified the text sounds, the better the result, else prayer books would not be written poetically, but rather in dry, languid prose. The rest depends upon the skill of the reader. One reason I&#039;ve not went over to the NRSV totally is that I prefer the cadence and wording in many cases of the RSV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jody it turns out I am your neighbor to the South down here in AL. I am a layman and am studying to become a Worship Leader, and am still in discernment about becoming a Pastoral Leader and Lay Preacher.OK, back to the topic. I tend to have roughly the same concerns as you Jody, about the ESV and the NRSV. Both have problems with the whole issue of gender relative pronouns. The ESV seems inconsistent about it&#8217;s choices at times, while as you mentioned, the NRSV sometimes skews the echo effect of messianic passages, so to the reader who wasn&#8217;t already aware of their messianic nature the link between OT and NT passages may never be picked up on. That being said, the NRSV seems to be highly accurate even in these situations, though I would prefer in this instance a more traditional rendering in the OT passages, so that the link is clarion(yes a theological override).  I also agree the NRSV reads exceptionally well, and for the most part remains fairly stately for such a smooth reader. However, it does tend, as you stated, to lose some of it&#8217;s beauty in poetic passages on occasion for the sake, I assume, of readability. I also don&#8217;t like how it abandons traditional Church language, such as expiation, or propitiation in places. This is one reason I do like the ESV. I&#8217;m a little different than most I suppose, but I like the Bible to read in a stately English, that sounds different than the way we talk in everyday conversation. I know this sounds old fashioned and nostalgic, and perhaps it is, but particularly as a lay reader I tend to think a more stately English tends to almost command a certain degree of respect from the hearers of the reading, drawing them more effectively into the reading itself. There is a certain amount of theatrics(for lack of a better term) involved in liturgy, and the more dignified the text sounds, the better the result, else prayer books would not be written poetically, but rather in dry, languid prose. The rest depends upon the skill of the reader. One reason I&#8217;ve not went over to the NRSV totally is that I prefer the cadence and wording in many cases of the RSV.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3124</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 18:12:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3124</guid>
		<description>Jody, one reason I have seen suggested for the LXX translation &lt;em&gt;parthenos&lt;/em&gt; in Isaiah 7:14 is that at the time when that translation was made it had a similar meaning to Hebrew &lt;em&gt;`alma&lt;/em&gt;, that is &quot;young woman&quot;, and that only later it came to have the specific meaning &quot;virgin&quot;. I am not sure how certain this interpretation is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jody, one reason I have seen suggested for the LXX translation <em>parthenos</em> in Isaiah 7:14 is that at the time when that translation was made it had a similar meaning to Hebrew <em>`alma</em>, that is &#8220;young woman&#8221;, and that only later it came to have the specific meaning &#8220;virgin&#8221;. I am not sure how certain this interpretation is.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody+</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3123</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody+</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3123</guid>
		<description>CD-Host, As far as number 1 goes, which you charge as reading the NT back into the OT, as a Christian I accept the premise that scripture interprets scripture.  If nothing else, the interpretations of the OT in the New demonstrate understandings that were present at the time of the latter&#039;s writing, and therefore provides a lens to see how our early Christian forebears read their own scripture (just as the Septuagint provides a similar lens to an earlier time).  And as I&#039;ve said before, where evidence is otherwise equal and subjective, I don&#039;t believe there&#039;s anything wrong with leaning in the direction of traditional interpretation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CD-Host, As far as number 1 goes, which you charge as reading the NT back into the OT, as a Christian I accept the premise that scripture interprets scripture.  If nothing else, the interpretations of the OT in the New demonstrate understandings that were present at the time of the latter&#8217;s writing, and therefore provides a lens to see how our early Christian forebears read their own scripture (just as the Septuagint provides a similar lens to an earlier time).  And as I&#8217;ve said before, where evidence is otherwise equal and subjective, I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;s anything wrong with leaning in the direction of traditional interpretation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jody+</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3122</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody+</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 17:30:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3122</guid>
		<description>CD-Host, In regards to Almah, context means a lot.  As I&#039;ve said before, a better English word to translate it would be neither &quot;virgin&quot; or &quot;young woman&quot; but maiden because the word carries the same connotation in English that I understand Almah to have in Hebrew, which is: a young woman of marriageable age who, if unmarried and it is not otherwise implied, is assumed to be a virgin.  This is partly a cultural reality as well as a linguistic one, and is also why it is important that the Jewish translators of the Septuagint chose to translate it with parthenos, because it shows that those without a Christological bone to pick saw that as an accurate translation.  This is not some radical view... a quick survey of the online archives of scholarly journals such as &lt;em&gt;Biblioteca Sacra&lt;/em&gt;, or the &lt;em&gt;Jounral of Biblical Literature&lt;/em&gt; will demonstate that.

Where does the ESV harmonize the text of the Gospel?  Again, I&#039;m looking for some singular interpretations that are not simply in continuity with the RSV or other previous translations.  It still seems to me most of your concerns are based upon the fact that you simply disagree with choices they made--and that&#039;s fine, but accepting your arguments seems to require assumptions that other people may not hold.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CD-Host, In regards to Almah, context means a lot.  As I&#8217;ve said before, a better English word to translate it would be neither &#8220;virgin&#8221; or &#8220;young woman&#8221; but maiden because the word carries the same connotation in English that I understand Almah to have in Hebrew, which is: a young woman of marriageable age who, if unmarried and it is not otherwise implied, is assumed to be a virgin.  This is partly a cultural reality as well as a linguistic one, and is also why it is important that the Jewish translators of the Septuagint chose to translate it with parthenos, because it shows that those without a Christological bone to pick saw that as an accurate translation.  This is not some radical view&#8230; a quick survey of the online archives of scholarly journals such as <em>Biblioteca Sacra</em>, or the <em>Jounral of Biblical Literature</em> will demonstate that.</p>
<p>Where does the ESV harmonize the text of the Gospel?  Again, I&#8217;m looking for some singular interpretations that are not simply in continuity with the RSV or other previous translations.  It still seems to me most of your concerns are based upon the fact that you simply disagree with choices they made&#8211;and that&#8217;s fine, but accepting your arguments seems to require assumptions that other people may not hold.</p>
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		<title>By: CD-Host</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3119</link>
		<dc:creator>CD-Host</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 16:50:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3119</guid>
		<description>But using that as a criterion to say it’s worse than the NWT?  I don’t know about that.  The changes in the NWT aren’t based on any inference in the text and they aren’t in continuity with earlier Christian and Jewish translations. 

Well first off almah does not mean virgin.  The word can be used for a prostitute based on chronological age.  So what you are really saying is the ESV&#039;s changes are in line with your theology while the NWT&#039;s are not.  Well yeah.  But then is your claim against the NWT that your theology can do overrides and their&#039;s can&#039;t?  The changes in the NWT are:

1)  Reading the OT Jehovah back into the NT.  Which does strike me as analogous though frankly weaker than reading the NT back into the OT.

2)  Weakening verses which violate their Arian understanding of the text.  Again that is similar to what you are defending with regard to the ESV where they have shading things in line with their theology (for example reformed).

3)  Adding clarifying words in line with their theology like the change from Heb 9:27.  Well the ESV does things like this.  For example Gospel harmonization, that is they believe the gospels tell the same story and thus they freely harmonize the text.

And again the big difference is the Jehovah&#039;s Witnesses publish the KIT which accurately indicates where they have made these changes.  The ESV does not have that sort of material, they act as if their changes were the only possibilities since after all they are producing an &quot;essentially literal&quot; translation.   So no I don&#039;t see the difference unless it boils down to &quot;when my team does it, it is OK but when the other team does it....&quot;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But using that as a criterion to say it’s worse than the NWT?  I don’t know about that.  The changes in the NWT aren’t based on any inference in the text and they aren’t in continuity with earlier Christian and Jewish translations. </p>
<p>Well first off almah does not mean virgin.  The word can be used for a prostitute based on chronological age.  So what you are really saying is the ESV&#8217;s changes are in line with your theology while the NWT&#8217;s are not.  Well yeah.  But then is your claim against the NWT that your theology can do overrides and their&#8217;s can&#8217;t?  The changes in the NWT are:</p>
<p>1)  Reading the OT Jehovah back into the NT.  Which does strike me as analogous though frankly weaker than reading the NT back into the OT.</p>
<p>2)  Weakening verses which violate their Arian understanding of the text.  Again that is similar to what you are defending with regard to the ESV where they have shading things in line with their theology (for example reformed).</p>
<p>3)  Adding clarifying words in line with their theology like the change from Heb 9:27.  Well the ESV does things like this.  For example Gospel harmonization, that is they believe the gospels tell the same story and thus they freely harmonize the text.</p>
<p>And again the big difference is the Jehovah&#8217;s Witnesses publish the KIT which accurately indicates where they have made these changes.  The ESV does not have that sort of material, they act as if their changes were the only possibilities since after all they are producing an &#8220;essentially literal&#8221; translation.   So no I don&#8217;t see the difference unless it boils down to &#8220;when my team does it, it is OK but when the other team does it&#8230;.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jody+</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/07/15/oxford-university-press-and-the-esv-apocrypha/comment-page-2/#comment-3116</link>
		<dc:creator>Jody+</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.net/?p=548#comment-3116</guid>
		<description>L. Wells, Greetings to you as well.  I am also a ECUSA Anglican/Episcopalian, very happily serving in TN.  I&#039;ve been re-reading this thread and appreciate many of your comments.  We probably have a similar perspective since I too had the experience of having my faith strengthened by modern biblical criticism when I was in College.  Because of that I didn&#039;t experience any of the &quot;faith shattering&quot; at seminary that some do.

In regards to issues with the ESV, I concede (and have conceded in a discussion on my blog) that there are issues with some of the male terms used in translating 1 &amp; 2 Timothy especially.  Many of the other criticisms however, seem to be based not on any singular interpretations thrust onto the text, but rather because the translators/redactors of the ESV didn&#039;t make the same judgements as those who translated the NRSV, and in a few places where the ESV returned to an older translation than the RSV.  It&#039;s certainly OK to believe the translators were wrong, or that they were even wrongly motivated by gender-bias in some cases, but the level of hostility strikes me as equally ideologically driven.

I&#039;ve never stopped using the NRSV, especially my New Oxford Annoted and New Interpreters (which, like you, I appreciate in many cases, but find too liberal in others.  I especially like the fact that it includes a note on the Anglican stepped-canon), and I actually prefer the overall smoothness of the NRSV translation, with the exception of places where I think they went overboard and lost some poetic language, which the ESV does a better job of maintaining in many cases, as well as where they either didn&#039;t maintain continuity between the Old Testament and the NT passages that cite them so that people can hear the scriptural echoes, or allowed their concern to be gender-inclusive render impossible messianic interpretations of some psalms.  But we don&#039;t use those in worship, having the BCP version instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>L. Wells, Greetings to you as well.  I am also a ECUSA Anglican/Episcopalian, very happily serving in TN.  I&#8217;ve been re-reading this thread and appreciate many of your comments.  We probably have a similar perspective since I too had the experience of having my faith strengthened by modern biblical criticism when I was in College.  Because of that I didn&#8217;t experience any of the &#8220;faith shattering&#8221; at seminary that some do.</p>
<p>In regards to issues with the ESV, I concede (and have conceded in a discussion on my blog) that there are issues with some of the male terms used in translating 1 &#038; 2 Timothy especially.  Many of the other criticisms however, seem to be based not on any singular interpretations thrust onto the text, but rather because the translators/redactors of the ESV didn&#8217;t make the same judgements as those who translated the NRSV, and in a few places where the ESV returned to an older translation than the RSV.  It&#8217;s certainly OK to believe the translators were wrong, or that they were even wrongly motivated by gender-bias in some cases, but the level of hostility strikes me as equally ideologically driven.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve never stopped using the NRSV, especially my New Oxford Annoted and New Interpreters (which, like you, I appreciate in many cases, but find too liberal in others.  I especially like the fact that it includes a note on the Anglican stepped-canon), and I actually prefer the overall smoothness of the NRSV translation, with the exception of places where I think they went overboard and lost some poetic language, which the ESV does a better job of maintaining in many cases, as well as where they either didn&#8217;t maintain continuity between the Old Testament and the NT passages that cite them so that people can hear the scriptural echoes, or allowed their concern to be gender-inclusive render impossible messianic interpretations of some psalms.  But we don&#8217;t use those in worship, having the BCP version instead.</p>
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