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	<title>Comments on: More wordplay: John 15.2-3 *updated*</title>
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	<description>A personal walk in a wilderness of words</description>
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		<title>By: J. K. Gayle</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3951</link>
		<dc:creator>J. K. Gayle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 18:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1316#comment-3951</guid>
		<description>That should have been:  Plato&#039;s Republic, &quot;...discussion about the proper tool for specified work.&quot;  A knife, a blade like a sword&#039;s, or other tools properly are for cutting off vine branches.  

No mention of these tools or of pruning good branches in John 15, so it seems.  Leviticus 25:3-4 (in the LXX) shows the root-word τέμνω temno (to cut) in the Greek context of vine pruning.  

If John didn&#039;t read his Plato, then I think there&#039;s plenty to suggest he might have read his Greek Bible, which says:  

 ἓξ ἔτη σπερεῖς τὸν ἀγρόν σου καὶ ἓξ ἔτη τεμεῖς τὴν ἄμπελόν σου καὶ συνάξεις τὸν καρπὸν αὐτῆς
τῷ δὲ ἔτει τῷ ἑβδόμῳ σάββατα ἀνάπαυσις ἔσται τῇ γῇ, σάββατα τῷ κυρίῳ· τὸν ἀγρόν σου οὐ σπερεῖς καὶ τὴν ἄμπελόν σου οὐ τεμεῖς

Brenton translates that Greek into this English:  

&quot;Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shall prune thy vine, and gather in its fruit.
But in the seventh year [shall be] a sabbath, it shall be a rest to the land, a sabbath to the Lord: thou shalt not sow thy field, and thou shalt not prune thy vine.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That should have been:  Plato&#8217;s Republic, &#8220;&#8230;discussion about the proper tool for specified work.&#8221;  A knife, a blade like a sword&#8217;s, or other tools properly are for cutting off vine branches.  </p>
<p>No mention of these tools or of pruning good branches in John 15, so it seems.  Leviticus 25:3-4 (in the LXX) shows the root-word τέμνω temno (to cut) in the Greek context of vine pruning.  </p>
<p>If John didn&#8217;t read his Plato, then I think there&#8217;s plenty to suggest he might have read his Greek Bible, which says:  </p>
<p> ἓξ ἔτη σπερεῖς τὸν ἀγρόν σου καὶ ἓξ ἔτη τεμεῖς τὴν ἄμπελόν σου καὶ συνάξεις τὸν καρπὸν αὐτῆς<br />
τῷ δὲ ἔτει τῷ ἑβδόμῳ σάββατα ἀνάπαυσις ἔσται τῇ γῇ, σάββατα τῷ κυρίῳ· τὸν ἀγρόν σου οὐ σπερεῖς καὶ τὴν ἄμπελόν σου οὐ τεμεῖς</p>
<p>Brenton translates that Greek into this English:  </p>
<p>&#8220;Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shall prune thy vine, and gather in its fruit.<br />
But in the seventh year [shall be] a sabbath, it shall be a rest to the land, a sabbath to the Lord: thou shalt not sow thy field, and thou shalt not prune thy vine.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: J. K. Gayle</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3950</link>
		<dc:creator>J. K. Gayle</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1316#comment-3950</guid>
		<description>Wayne, I agree with you about the semantic disjuncture between cleaning and pruning.  ElShaddai, I think your Wilkerson example is a good one.

The evidence from Greek before John is that καθαίρ* [kathair*] is for cleaning.  Neither this verb nor the compound (for &quot;take away&quot;) that you mention, Peter, seems to have been typically used with vines and branches.

The more usual verb for pruning of branches is ἀποτομη (apo-tomé, or to &quot;cut off&quot;).  For example, here&#039;s from Plato&#039;s Republic (353a), in a discussion about the proper tool for specified word: 

&quot;μαχαίρᾳ ἂν ἀμπέλου κλῆμα ἀποτέμοις καὶ σμίλῃ καὶ ἄλλοις πολλοῖς&quot;  

&quot;You could use a sword-like-blade to cut off vine branches and a knife and many other [instruments]&quot;

(The root of this word for pruning, τομη or tomé, to cut, is the same as the root for the Greek verb for circumcision--&quot;περι-τομη,&quot; per-itomé, to &quot;cut around&quot;)

John, I think, is translating Jesus&#039;s Aramaic in order to pun in Greek.  He&#039;s using the clean-up metaphor with vine branches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne, I agree with you about the semantic disjuncture between cleaning and pruning.  ElShaddai, I think your Wilkerson example is a good one.</p>
<p>The evidence from Greek before John is that καθαίρ* [kathair*] is for cleaning.  Neither this verb nor the compound (for &#8220;take away&#8221;) that you mention, Peter, seems to have been typically used with vines and branches.</p>
<p>The more usual verb for pruning of branches is ἀποτομη (apo-tomé, or to &#8220;cut off&#8221;).  For example, here&#8217;s from Plato&#8217;s Republic (353a), in a discussion about the proper tool for specified word: </p>
<p>&#8220;μαχαίρᾳ ἂν ἀμπέλου κλῆμα ἀποτέμοις καὶ σμίλῃ καὶ ἄλλοις πολλοῖς&#8221;  </p>
<p>&#8220;You could use a sword-like-blade to cut off vine branches and a knife and many other [instruments]&#8221;</p>
<p>(The root of this word for pruning, τομη or tomé, to cut, is the same as the root for the Greek verb for circumcision&#8211;&#8221;περι-τομη,&#8221; per-itomé, to &#8220;cut around&#8221;)</p>
<p>John, I think, is translating Jesus&#8217;s Aramaic in order to pun in Greek.  He&#8217;s using the clean-up metaphor with vine branches.</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3940</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 09:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1316#comment-3940</guid>
		<description>Wayne: &lt;i&gt;I don’t sense any semantic link between cleansing and pruning.&lt;/i&gt;

I wonder if that sensing is something you either &quot;get&quot; from having worked with plants and trees, or you don&#039;t. I too appreciate the REB&#039;s attempt to link all three verbs, even though I do understand &quot;prune&quot; as cleaning a branch.

The direct connection in a vineyard was underscored for me in Bruce Wilkerson&#039;s book, &quot;The Secrets of the Vine&quot;, where he&#039;s talking with a vineyard owner about cleansing and pruning the vines. The owner&#039;s point was that vines were too valuable to just be cut off without attempting to clean them and bring them back into production. For Wilkerson then, another sense of verse 2 might be:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He lifts up, cleans it off and helps it flourish again; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Instead of &quot;take away&quot; meaning &quot;cut off&quot;, Wilkerson read it to mean &quot;lift up and clean&quot;. I don&#039;t know if that&#039;s bad translation and application, but his imagery was effective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne: <i>I don’t sense any semantic link between cleansing and pruning.</i></p>
<p>I wonder if that sensing is something you either &#8220;get&#8221; from having worked with plants and trees, or you don&#8217;t. I too appreciate the REB&#8217;s attempt to link all three verbs, even though I do understand &#8220;prune&#8221; as cleaning a branch.</p>
<p>The direct connection in a vineyard was underscored for me in Bruce Wilkerson&#8217;s book, &#8220;The Secrets of the Vine&#8221;, where he&#8217;s talking with a vineyard owner about cleansing and pruning the vines. The owner&#8217;s point was that vines were too valuable to just be cut off without attempting to clean them and bring them back into production. For Wilkerson then, another sense of verse 2 might be:</p>
<blockquote><p>Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He lifts up, cleans it off and helps it flourish again; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.</p></blockquote>
<p>Instead of &#8220;take away&#8221; meaning &#8220;cut off&#8221;, Wilkerson read it to mean &#8220;lift up and clean&#8221;. I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s bad translation and application, but his imagery was effective.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3937</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Leman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Oct 2008 05:21:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1316#comment-3937</guid>
		<description>I had difficulty processing the versions which only used &quot;clean&quot; with no connection to pruning, since I don&#039;t sense any semantic link between cleansing and pruning. So I appreciate the way the REB links all three words together. I can comprehend &quot;prunes clean.&quot; I&#039;ve never heard it before, but it makes sense.

Thanks for continuing the discussion of the word plays in translation, ElShaddai. I recall hearing a Bible Societies consultant give a talk once on trying to retain a word play in one of the minor prophets. It&#039;s worth the attempt, if it can be done somehow, I think. Somewhere there is a balance in all of this between ensuring that the basic meaning is communicated while trying to include aesthetic features of the original forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had difficulty processing the versions which only used &#8220;clean&#8221; with no connection to pruning, since I don&#8217;t sense any semantic link between cleansing and pruning. So I appreciate the way the REB links all three words together. I can comprehend &#8220;prunes clean.&#8221; I&#8217;ve never heard it before, but it makes sense.</p>
<p>Thanks for continuing the discussion of the word plays in translation, ElShaddai. I recall hearing a Bible Societies consultant give a talk once on trying to retain a word play in one of the minor prophets. It&#8217;s worth the attempt, if it can be done somehow, I think. Somewhere there is a balance in all of this between ensuring that the basic meaning is communicated while trying to include aesthetic features of the original forms.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3935</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 23:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, I wouldn&#039;t make too much of the &quot;heresy&quot; link which is very remote. It is related the middle voice of &lt;i&gt;haireo&lt;/i&gt; meaning something like &quot;choose&quot;, perhaps originally &quot;take oneself away, separate oneself&quot;. But in John it is God who does the taking away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I wouldn&#8217;t make too much of the &#8220;heresy&#8221; link which is very remote. It is related the middle voice of <i>haireo</i> meaning something like &#8220;choose&#8221;, perhaps originally &#8220;take oneself away, separate oneself&#8221;. But in John it is God who does the taking away.</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3934</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:43:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you, Peter - I really appreciate the insight. The overlay of &quot;heresy&quot; on this passage has some interesting considerations, especially related to the context in the letters of John of the &quot;antichrists&quot; then coming from within the Church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Peter &#8211; I really appreciate the insight. The overlay of &#8220;heresy&#8221; on this passage has some interesting considerations, especially related to the context in the letters of John of the &#8220;antichrists&#8221; then coming from within the Church.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/10/30/more-wordplay-john-152-3/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Kirk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Oct 2008 17:18:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1316#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>There is more to this pun than you have noticed. The verb form &lt;i&gt;kathairei&lt;/i&gt;, in an unaccented text, can be derived from two different verbs, either &lt;i&gt;kathairo&lt;/i&gt; &quot;cleanse, prune&quot; which is derived from &lt;i&gt;katharos&lt;/i&gt; &quot;clean&quot;, or &lt;i&gt;kathaireo&lt;/i&gt; which can mean &quot;take down&quot; or &quot;take away&quot;. The latter is a compound, a contraction of &lt;i&gt;kata-haireo&lt;/i&gt;. Then if we look at the other verb here &lt;i&gt;airei&lt;/i&gt;, in an accented text this is clearly from &lt;i&gt;airo&lt;/i&gt; &quot;take&quot;, but in an unaccented text we can also read &lt;i&gt;hairei&lt;/i&gt; from &lt;i&gt;haireo&lt;/i&gt;, a different verb but with a rather similar meaning &quot;take&quot; (and the root of &lt;i&gt;hairesis&lt;/i&gt; &quot;heresy&quot;). So the second verb can well be read as the first one with the prefix &lt;i&gt;kata-&lt;/i&gt; &quot;down&quot;. The adjective &lt;i&gt;katharos&lt;/i&gt; in the next verse tends to resolve the ambiguity in another direction, but this would be appreciated only by readers who knew their Greek well, that &lt;i&gt;katharos&lt;/i&gt; is not in fact a compound of &lt;i&gt;kata-&lt;/i&gt; with something else. Thus there is a multitude of possible word plays here in this probably deliberately enigmatic discourse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is more to this pun than you have noticed. The verb form <i>kathairei</i>, in an unaccented text, can be derived from two different verbs, either <i>kathairo</i> &#8220;cleanse, prune&#8221; which is derived from <i>katharos</i> &#8220;clean&#8221;, or <i>kathaireo</i> which can mean &#8220;take down&#8221; or &#8220;take away&#8221;. The latter is a compound, a contraction of <i>kata-haireo</i>. Then if we look at the other verb here <i>airei</i>, in an accented text this is clearly from <i>airo</i> &#8220;take&#8221;, but in an unaccented text we can also read <i>hairei</i> from <i>haireo</i>, a different verb but with a rather similar meaning &#8220;take&#8221; (and the root of <i>hairesis</i> &#8220;heresy&#8221;). So the second verb can well be read as the first one with the prefix <i>kata-</i> &#8220;down&#8221;. The adjective <i>katharos</i> in the next verse tends to resolve the ambiguity in another direction, but this would be appreciated only by readers who knew their Greek well, that <i>katharos</i> is not in fact a compound of <i>kata-</i> with something else. Thus there is a multitude of possible word plays here in this probably deliberately enigmatic discourse.</p>
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