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	<title>Comments on: Faith and works: two judgments?</title>
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	<description>A personal walk in a wilderness of words</description>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4025</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 19:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4025</guid>
		<description>@Gary - I need to read more by Wesley. I scored pretty high as a &quot;Wesleyian&quot; on some theological survey a long time back, but never really followed up on it. I like his take on &quot;empty deeds&quot;.

@Eric - I had initially read &quot;in the body&quot; as akin to &quot;of the flesh&quot;, that is, our sinful lives apart from Christ, but that could create some weird sort of Gnostic &quot;physical work&quot; vs &quot;spiritual work&quot; dichotomy. If you take the approach that this is a reward judgment, based on post-confessional works done &quot;in Christ&quot;, then that &quot;2008 American evagelical view&quot; makes more sense inasmuch as it&#039;s referring to the corporate body. 

I&#039;ve certainly found sympathy with a corporate reading in many Pauline texts, e.g. election, and so I&#039;m inclined to lean that way again. But I&#039;ll try to take a closer look at the Greek and see if what&#039;s under the covers, so to speak. Certainly it deserves another post!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Gary &#8211; I need to read more by Wesley. I scored pretty high as a &#8220;Wesleyian&#8221; on some theological survey a long time back, but never really followed up on it. I like his take on &#8220;empty deeds&#8221;.</p>
<p>@Eric &#8211; I had initially read &#8220;in the body&#8221; as akin to &#8220;of the flesh&#8221;, that is, our sinful lives apart from Christ, but that could create some weird sort of Gnostic &#8220;physical work&#8221; vs &#8220;spiritual work&#8221; dichotomy. If you take the approach that this is a reward judgment, based on post-confessional works done &#8220;in Christ&#8221;, then that &#8220;2008 American evagelical view&#8221; makes more sense inasmuch as it&#8217;s referring to the corporate body. </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve certainly found sympathy with a corporate reading in many Pauline texts, e.g. election, and so I&#8217;m inclined to lean that way again. But I&#8217;ll try to take a closer look at the Greek and see if what&#8217;s under the covers, so to speak. Certainly it deserves another post!</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Larson</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4024</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4024</guid>
		<description>In addition to taking this in a different direction... now I&#039;m also dragging it out.  :)  But I thought you&#039;d find this interesting given your focus on various Bible translations.

The NIV renders 2nd Cor. 5:10 as &quot;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.&quot;  And I take that &quot;body&quot; reference to be &quot;members of the Church&quot; or &quot;Christians&quot;... but maybe that&#039;s a 2008 American evangelical view?

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/bema.html has a completely different take on this whole &quot;Bema seat&quot; issue... and uses the King James:  &quot;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.&quot;

The NLT makes that even clearer:  &quot;For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.&quot;

So, what &quot;body&quot; are we really talking about?  And if it&#039;s simply talking about the good or evil done while walking around on Earth... what alternative is there to &quot;sinning while in a human body&quot;?  Do we take that as &quot;merely&quot; poetic?  Do we spin off into some other sort of heresy (like, &quot;Well, clearly there are pre-incarnate souls, because Paul has to clarify that this judgment is of actions done while folks had bodies&quot;)?  Something in-between?

I&#039;m over-thinking this, aren&#039;t I?  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to taking this in a different direction&#8230; now I&#8217;m also dragging it out.  <img src='http://heissufficient.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />   But I thought you&#8217;d find this interesting given your focus on various Bible translations.</p>
<p>The NIV renders 2nd Cor. 5:10 as &#8220;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.&#8221;  And I take that &#8220;body&#8221; reference to be &#8220;members of the Church&#8221; or &#8220;Christians&#8221;&#8230; but maybe that&#8217;s a 2008 American evangelical view?</p>
<p><a  href="http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/bema.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/faq/bema.html</a> has a completely different take on this whole &#8220;Bema seat&#8221; issue&#8230; and uses the King James:  &#8220;For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.&#8221;</p>
<p>The NLT makes that even clearer:  &#8220;For we must all stand before Christ to be judged. We will each receive whatever we deserve for the good or evil we have done in this earthly body.&#8221;</p>
<p>So, what &#8220;body&#8221; are we really talking about?  And if it&#8217;s simply talking about the good or evil done while walking around on Earth&#8230; what alternative is there to &#8220;sinning while in a human body&#8221;?  Do we take that as &#8220;merely&#8221; poetic?  Do we spin off into some other sort of heresy (like, &#8220;Well, clearly there are pre-incarnate souls, because Paul has to clarify that this judgment is of actions done while folks had bodies&#8221;)?  Something in-between?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m over-thinking this, aren&#8217;t I?  <img src='http://heissufficient.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Gary Zimmerli</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4023</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Zimmerli</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 18:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4023</guid>
		<description>James 2:18 (TNIV)
&lt;i&gt;&quot;But someone will say, &#039;You have faith; I have deeds.&#039;

    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

The two are inextricably linked, ElShaddai. And I think you have put them in the right perspective, in that the one determines salvation and the other the reward.

John Wesley considered the man who did his good deeds but had no faith. He said the deeds were &quot;but a shadow&quot; of what they would have been had the man &lt;i&gt;had&lt;/i&gt; faith. They are like an empty shell. The man who has faith, his deeds are full because of his faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>James 2:18 (TNIV)<br />
<i>&#8220;But someone will say, &#8216;You have faith; I have deeds.&#8217;</p>
<p>    Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>The two are inextricably linked, ElShaddai. And I think you have put them in the right perspective, in that the one determines salvation and the other the reward.</p>
<p>John Wesley considered the man who did his good deeds but had no faith. He said the deeds were &#8220;but a shadow&#8221; of what they would have been had the man <i>had</i> faith. They are like an empty shell. The man who has faith, his deeds are full because of his faith.</p>
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		<title>By: ElShaddai Edwards</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4002</link>
		<dc:creator>ElShaddai Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 16:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4002</guid>
		<description>Makes sense to me, Eric. I agree that the separation of sin, i.e. &quot;bad things done in the body&quot;, from the security of salvation was the most helpful part of Pastor&#039;s sermon. An extension of that point is that whatever someone has done prior to a confession of faith is completely irrelevant because that&#039;s not what the white throne judgment is about. It&#039;s only how we conduct ourselves &quot;in Christ&quot; that determines our reward in heaven.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Makes sense to me, Eric. I agree that the separation of sin, i.e. &#8220;bad things done in the body&#8221;, from the security of salvation was the most helpful part of Pastor&#8217;s sermon. An extension of that point is that whatever someone has done prior to a confession of faith is completely irrelevant because that&#8217;s not what the white throne judgment is about. It&#8217;s only how we conduct ourselves &#8220;in Christ&#8221; that determines our reward in heaven.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Larson</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4001</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Larson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 15:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4001</guid>
		<description>Not to take this in a totally different direction, but what really struck me (and what I&#039;d like to see discussed further somewhere) is the reference to &quot;things done while in the body, whether good or bad&quot; (2 Cor. 5:10).

What I noticed is that it concisely addresses the &quot;do Christians sin?&quot; question.  We know we do, but various false doctrines and heresies and concerns have sprung up around that -- losing one&#039;s salvation, defining &quot;deliberately keep on sinning&quot;, etc.

So it was just refreshing to be reminded in a Biblically-sound way that &quot;bad things&quot; can indeed be done while IN the body without affecting salvation itself.  (And, because this is the judgment of believers, one can&#039;t weasel out and say, &quot;in the body&quot; simply means &quot;an unbeliever had invaded the community for a time&quot;.)

Does that make any sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not to take this in a totally different direction, but what really struck me (and what I&#8217;d like to see discussed further somewhere) is the reference to &#8220;things done while in the body, whether good or bad&#8221; (2 Cor. 5:10).</p>
<p>What I noticed is that it concisely addresses the &#8220;do Christians sin?&#8221; question.  We know we do, but various false doctrines and heresies and concerns have sprung up around that &#8212; losing one&#8217;s salvation, defining &#8220;deliberately keep on sinning&#8221;, etc.</p>
<p>So it was just refreshing to be reminded in a Biblically-sound way that &#8220;bad things&#8221; can indeed be done while IN the body without affecting salvation itself.  (And, because this is the judgment of believers, one can&#8217;t weasel out and say, &#8220;in the body&#8221; simply means &#8220;an unbeliever had invaded the community for a time&#8221;.)</p>
<p>Does that make any sense?</p>
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		<title>By: tc robinson</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-4000</link>
		<dc:creator>tc robinson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 08:26:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-4000</guid>
		<description>According to the Reformers, &quot;We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone.&quot;

Yes, our rewards are based on our good works (1 Cor 3:12-15).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the Reformers, &#8220;We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, our rewards are based on our good works (1 Cor 3:12-15).</p>
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		<title>By: James Pate</title>
		<link>http://heissufficient.com/2008/11/10/faith-and-works-two-judgments/#comment-3999</link>
		<dc:creator>James Pate</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 20:37:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://heissufficient.com/?p=1397#comment-3999</guid>
		<description>But those in Matthew 25 who don&#039;t do good works are sent to hell.  Can we say this judgment has nothing to do with salvation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But those in Matthew 25 who don&#8217;t do good works are sent to hell.  Can we say this judgment has nothing to do with salvation?</p>
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